is New BG Points System fair?

[SystemViper]

@skillz

One main theme in your line in your post keeps buggin me,

you said, not me. competition is winning, please define winning.
My definition is winning is being able to compete at a high level to achieve my desired goal, as stated i like being in the top 10. I feel good if i can achieve that, that is mine for boinc games. it's not being #1 but yo have a chance

Please tell me how you intend to compete at a high level while only participating in half the competition, Steve. Please.
I have been in the top 10 since I joined BG, actions not words?
So I have been able to compete, before.


You want to be in the Top 10? Nothing, absolutely nothing is stopping you from achieving those goals on the projects you want to run. Each project is tracked individually. You want to be top 10 on your specific projects? Go for it. You want to be top 10 overall, then you need to run the overall competition not just half of it.

So i'm not listening but you are?> It's statedabove.

being able to compete and winning are totally different, but...

you ask for comentatary but you don't try to understand it instead you tell me to move along,
so i won't voice my opinion
so if you want and i'll stop trying to help.

I am not telling you to move along. You're just not reading anything. You're not even giving the new system a chance. Literally as SOON as the points changed you grabbed your pitch forks and came running to the forums to complain.

Had you waited, you would have noticed that the points were incorrect for a few of the teams where some projects were somehow counted double or triple. Once Kiska (well Ian&Steve is the one who discovered the discrepancies) fixed it the points changed drastically between those teams effected.

Your spokesman is telling me that!

My question IE post title. Is this points system fair?
isn't that a valid question and isn't my POV relevant, alas i am a cruncher?

Please, for the love of God Steve. Tell me what is not fair.
If you don't run all the projects you have very little chance of running this competition and doing well.
it's the way your points system is set up/ But under the old system you didn't have to run every project, it in the numbers. Even your spokesman said he was being held back.

While also telling me this, also let me know how it's not fair that only the top 10 teams (or individuals) were able to score points previously. IE: Explain this to me.
What is your goal, making a competitive game that is fair to all or trying to get people to crunch more?
or something different? or don't you have a goal?

Team ABC ranks 11th in ALL 30 projects.
Team XYC ranks 10th in ONE project and has no presence in any of the other projects.

Old system. Team XYC would be above ABC with 1 BG point in the overall ranks. Team ABC would be in 11th.
New system. Team XYC is below ABC with 270 points. Team ABC is in 10th place now with 7875 points.

Doesn't that make a more fair system for all teams, not just catering to those who are in the top 10?
No it's not better for a cruncher that chooses to run only programs that they feel are important, not having to run every program.

I will need to understand your example soi will reply later with specifics.

To me it's more about understanding and trying to make it better, in my little world with my few rigs it "holds me back"!
Doesn't that alone merritt a little discussion, that if one person is "held back" from being reasonably able to compete (not win). It might also affect another member.

that's all i was asking
SV

The fact that you keep bringing up how many systems to have is irrelevant. Most everyone has a "few" rigs as you put it. Unless they had enough rigs to put them in the top 10, they wouldn't be ranked. So for you to claim you have a "few" systems, now YOU can get points in ALL the projects you intend to crunch regardless if you are in 1st place, 5th place or 250th place. You got points on the board and can compare it to everyone else.

yea i brought that up once, where do i keep saying that?

Competition doesn't just create winners and success stories. It builds strong personalities, resilience and determination, a sense of humor and humility. It builds high-performing entrepreneurs, executives and business leaders. It makes us strong.

It does. So how fun would it be if you can't compete in the top 10? The old system only if you could make it to the top 10 were you able to compete with those in the top 10. Now, regardless if you are in the top 10, top 20, top 100, you can compete with those who have similar computational power as you do.

If I can't compete there is no reason to be here.

Is PrimeGrid changing their points system in the middle/end of the season. NO
Were you asked to voice idea's for the growth of PG? again NO
don't distract from the point of conversation, is the BG points system fair.

PG's Challenge Series is not in BETA. It's not a work in progress. It's been running for years. Apples to oranges man.
I didn't bring up PG your spokesperson did, ask them

it's clear that Skillz wants this competition to be rooted in supporting all (active) boinc projects. It can help encourage users who wouldn't normally run some projects to branch out and spread the love, so to speak.

When did he say that? It's BG's choice, not debatable so what are you talking about?
again distraction from main topic.

I said that here:

It promotes teams and individuals to crunch ALL projects which is what these competitions are about. Bringing awareness to all the BOINC projects especially the smaller, lesser known projects so they can get new members to crunch the information they are researching.

OK, I disagree with that statement but it's your choice,

Again if your point is that your changing the points system mid stream and you feel that it's a "just the way it is" situation, hey I can accept that but don't ask for comments and really try not to listen a moment.

I will say this again. The site is in BETA. Changes are going to be happening a lot until we get to a system that works. Try giving something a chance before bringing the pitch forks. I've already explained to you numerous times the reason for changing the points system. It's to give the top 100 teams (instead of top 10) BG points for competing. Its for giving the top 300 individuals (instead of top 10) BG points for competing.

Pitch forks, I was just trying to have conversation about it it's really fair when it impacts me.
I guess unless I agree I am wrong, sorry I won't say anything but the company line bloss.

It's like WTF, so we can't have a discussion on the points system being fair to everyone, at least if you were honest and replied, "we think this points system is the best way to move forward and were going to give it a try, plus we don't want any discussion of how it affects you, I can handle it, trust me,
but shucking and jiving, attaching the questioner isn't the way to solve this.

I just thing it "holds me back from competing, not winning" that is my reality and thought maybe BG didn't think about that part, woops pardon me.

How does it stop you from competing? How? You only want to run a select few projects. You can compete in them regardless of what the point structure is. BG tracks each project individually.

Well I like to compete in the Marathon, Sprints and Individually. So I saw that your new points system doesn't allow me to compete at a level that I give to everything I do. Good or bad that is my opinion, are you telling me that i'm wrong in my viewpoint.

I understand it's Beta and if you don't want to discuss crunchers prospective, fine you the boss.
I'll keep my mouth shut, but to say your points system doesn't affect anything and fair is nonsense.

]

SV

[Skillz]

I have been in the top 10 since I joined BG, actions not words?
So I have been able to compete, before.

Yeah, because half the people participating wasn't getting points for their contributions. Now they are.

You want to be in the Top 10? Nothing, absolutely nothing is stopping you from achieving those goals on the projects you want to run. Each project is tracked individually. You want to be top 10 on your specific projects? Go for it. You want to be top 10 overall, then you need to run the overall competition not just half of it.

So i'm not listening but you are?> It's statedabove.

Oh I am listening. And what you are saying, without actually saying is, you want to participate in only the projects you are interested in and be competitive in the top 3, top 5, top 10 of the overall competition. Never mind the fact that others who might not be doing as good as you in the projects you are running, but are competing in ALL the events and will ultimately have a better rank than you.

Yet, you want to have a better rank because the projects you run are more important to you and thus should carry some kind of more weight.

Your spokesman is telling me that!

Ian&Steve is just trying to help. He is not associated with BG no more than you are.

If you don't run all the projects you have very little chance of running this competition and doing well.
it's the way your points system is set up/ But under the old system you didn't have to run every project, it in the numbers. Even your spokesman said he was being held back.

So it's fair to the ones who do run all the projects who don't have enough hardware to be in the top 10 anywhere to not have a suitable rank or BG points at all in this competition? So ONLY the top 10 matter? Just the top 1%, who cares about the other 99% right?

He also said it was HIS choice that he is being held back because HE chooses not to run any other projects except the ones he wants.

No it's not better for a cruncher that chooses to run only programs that they feel are important, not having to run every program.

So again, and I'm tired of circling back to this. You only want to run half the competition and win? Err, I mean be competitive.

I will need to understand your example soi will reply later with specifics.[/b]

Take your time.

yea i brought that up once, where do i keep saying that?

You've mentioned having only a few systems or be a "little" guy more than once. I'm not about to go looking for them because you edit your posts so many times it's probably been edited out already.

If I can't compete there is no reason to be here.

One more time with me Steve. One more time. Follow along.

You like, well I don't know what projects you like so I took a quick look at a project you have points in, Amicable Numbers. You like Amicable Numbers? Good. Now let's see you competing in Amicable Numbers.

https://www.boincgames.com/marathon_project.php?id=24
Your team is 2nd.

Well apparently your account has opted out and I can't find you in the Individual stats here:
https://www.boincgames.com/marathon_users.php?id=24

But lets run two scenarios.

You have enough Amicable Number points to put you in 15th place.

Scenario 1. Old system. You get no BG points.
Scenario 2. New system. You get 536.70 BG points.

Which one of those two scenarios are you able to earn BG points and be competitive?

I didn't bring up PG your spokesperson did, ask them

Running around the answer I told you. Good one, Steve. What he said is true. The points system is based off Prime Grid. If he wants to compete in Prime Grid, then he needs to run Prime Grid project during their challenges. That's 100% true.

What YOU said was comparing BG to PG. Saying PG didn't change the points system in the middle of a year. I TOLD you why BG did. We are in BETA. Things are going to change and they're going to be changing a lot until we get something that works.

OK, I disagree with that statement but it's your choice,

Disagree with that. The factual outcome of that. You have told us 100s of times before you ran projects that you wouldn't normally run just to score points. That's proof right there that it brings computational power to smaller, lesser known projects. You literally did it.

How many projects have you signed up for, on the day a competition was started, just to compete in it? I am sure a good bit of them.

Again if your point is that your changing the points system mid stream and you feel that it's a "just the way it is" situation, hey I can accept that but don't ask for comments and really try not to listen a moment.

Pitch forks, I was just trying to have conversation about it it's really fair when it impacts me.
I guess unless I agree I am wrong, sorry I won't say anything but the company line bloss.

No you're not. You haven't given me a single reason on why the point system is not fair. Only that it's not fair to you. Nevermind the other participants who can earn BG points and be competitive.

Well I like to compete in the Marathon, Sprints and Individually. So I saw that your new points system doesn't allow me to compete at a level that I give to everything I do. Good or bad that is my opinion, are you telling me that i'm wrong in my viewpoint.

You can still compete in the marathon projects that you want. You can even be #1 in all of them if you want. That's literally competing at a high level and I know XS is more than capable of achieving 1st in most of them if they wish.

You yourself want to be competitive? What about everyone else? Shouldn't everyone here be competitive? How can someone who isn't ranked in the top 10 compete against others who aren't in the top 10? Simple answser: They can't. They wouldn't earn BG points unless they were at least 10th in the old system.

Now, everyone who contributes points has a much higher (top 300 for individuals) of being competitive.

I understand it's Beta and if you don't want to discuss crunchers prospective, fine you the boss.
I'll keep my mouth shut, but to say your points system doesn't affect anything and fair is nonsense.

]

Look past yourself. It does affect everyone. The top 10 are (in most cases) still in or near the top 10. Now, everyone else who wasn't in the top 10 has a rank and weight in the competition. The team or individuals in 15th place can now compete against the team or individual who's in 14th place. So on and so forth.

What I think you might be failing to realize is their is more than one thing going on here.

You have the ranks for each individual project. You can be competitive in those projects that you love, enjoy and beat the crap out of whoever else is also crunching those projects.

Then you have the overall rank. Those who crunch more projects are going to have more points because they are competing in more projects than half.

So let me be clear here.
These changes allows EVERYONE to be competitive in all the projects. They ALL receive BG points as long as they reach at least the top 100 (teams) and top 300 (individuals) and it's not about just the top 10 (teams and individuals) earning points.

There will be more competition going on as teams and individuals will be able to battle for the 20th positions, 12th positions, 29th positions, so on and so forth and not just the 1 - 10th positions.

[SystemViper]

I'm kinda taken back by your comments,
lets just say your questions are rhetorical and get to the New Points System

I'm going to absorb this,plus look at your examples, I have a few of my own and the we can just address the new points system and is it what's being represented. And is that good or bad for competition.
Soundgood?
SV
P.S> I have not edited one word of what I said.
Finally some meat on the bone...

The top 10 are (in most cases) still in or near the top 10. Now, everyone else who wasn't in the top 10 has a rank and weight in the competition. The team or individuals in 15th place can now compete against the team or individual who's in 14th place. So on and so forth.

What I think you might be failing to realize is their is more than one thing going on here.

You have the ranks for each individual project. You can be competitive in those projects that you love, enjoy and beat the crap out of whoever else is also crunching those projects.

Then you have the overall rank. Those who crunch more projects are going to have more points because they are competing in more projects than half.

So let me be clear here.
These changes allows EVERYONE to be competitive in all the projects. They ALL receive BG points as long as they reach at least the top 100 (teams) and top 300 (individuals) and it's not about just the top 10 (teams and individuals) earning points.

There will be more competition going on as teams and individuals will be able to battle for the 20th positions, 12th positions, 29th positions, so on and so forth and not just the 1 - 10th positions.

[Skillz]

I'm kinda taken back by your comments,
lets just say your questions are rhetorical and get to the New Points System

I'm going to absorb this,plus look at your examples, I have a few of my own and the we can just address the new points system and is it what's being represented. And is that good or bad for competition.
Soundgood?
SV
P.S> I have not edited one word of what I said.
Finally some meat on the bone...

While you are thinking this over, think about this.

You said you don't want to compete unless you can attain a certain level of competitiveness. Such as being in the top 10, or the top 5 or the top 3. Whichever it was.

So, let's think about everyone else besides just you and me or our teams.

With that attitude "Why bother if I can't compete".

If you are on a team that can't do any better than 11th place. Why join BG? On the old points system, if 11th was the best you could achieve then you'd never get any BG points. You'll never be able to compete. Not even with the person or team who's in 12th place, because who's in 12th place? Who's in 13th place?

Any placement beyond the top 10 would be pointless.

Therefore, why have more than 10 teams? Why have more than 10 members. If everyone who couldn't be in the top 10 just quit, we'd be left with 10 teams and 10 members. Because, why bother if they can't compete in the top 10?

[SystemViper]

While you are thinking this over, think about this.

You said you don't want to compete unless you can attain a certain level of competitiveness.
Such as being in the top 10, or the top 5 or the top 3. Whichever it was.
This is what I said -- "My definition of winning is being able to compete at a high level to achieve my desired goal, as stated i like being in the top 10. I feel good if i can achieve that, that is mine for boinc games. it's not being #1 but yo have a chance"
*** I add now that refers to the individual competition.


So, let's think about everyone else besides just you and me or our teams.
With that attitude "Why bother if I can't compete".
If you are on a team that can't do any better than 11th place. Why join BG? On the old points system, if 11th was the best you could achieve then you'd never get any BG points. You'll never be able to compete. Not even with the person or team who's in 12th place, because who's in 12th place? Who's in 13th place?
Any placement beyond the top 10 would be pointless.
Therefore, why have more than 10 teams? Why have more than 10 members. If everyone who couldn't be in the top 10 just quit, we'd be left with 10 teams and 10 members. Because, why bother if they can't compete in the top 10?

The only thing I can say to that is I disagree, how do you know if you can't be in the top 10 to the end and i can only speak to the old system not the new points system.? I found your arguments very weak and not on point.
Now on the other hand if you're forcing certain play on this site and it holds back people who like to choose their own projects than it's worth nothing and does have an impact.

One last piece of context, this has nothing to do with me choosing not to run any ruzzian projects, I can't limit what programs you onboard so that is my choice and I can deal with the ramifications, that is self imposed not imposed by the method of competition you choose. It is your choice because it's your site, but it does impact my ability to compete here because I want to choose only projects I support not every porject.

[Skillz]

The only thing I can say to that is I disagree, how do you know if you can't be in the top 10 to the end and i can only speak to the old system not the new points system.? I found your arguments very weak and not on point.
Now on the other hand if you're forcing certain play on this site and it holds back people who like to choose their own projects than it's worth nothing and does have an impact.

You disagree? Disagree with what? That's a factual statement. That it not an argument.

On the old system only the top 10 teams and individuals earned points. Period. Go back and look. What is their to argue? What is their to disagree with? Nothing.

If you can't be in the top 10 in the old system you simply, 100% can not compete. Period. You get 0 points for being in 11th. You get 0 points for being in 12th. You get 0 points for being in 13th. So on an so forth.

You want to compete on projects YOU care about? Good, go look at those standings. You can still achieve top 10 in those individual projects. Assuming you have the systems to be in the top 10.

You want to compete overall in the top 10? Play the whole game. Not half of it.

[SystemViper]

Ok again your misrepresenting me, so let try to simplify my point.

I am making a statement that I think it valid, it relates to my point so lets start with that.

There are some crunchers that want to spend their hard earned on only projects they believe in for whatever reason.
yes or no.

lets get by this while I start penning my point in as few words as I can.

thanks]
SV

[Skillz]

Ok again your misrepresenting me, so let try to simplify my point.

I am making a statement that I think it valid, it relates to my point so lets start with that.

There are some crunchers that want to spend their hard earned on only projects they believe in for whatever reason.
yes or no.

lets get by this while I start penning my point in as few words as I can.

thanks]
SV

Yes, there are a lot of people who only want to run a select few projects.

[SystemViper]

"there are a lot of people who only want to run a select few projects"

So if that's how I crunch too, it kinda means that it's not just about me.
I was just trying have a conversation on the new points system and some concerns that I saw.
I thought that was a smart thing to do, start a conversation to find out more about it and if my own reservations were correct.

This is about a points system that favors running all programs over people who want to run a select few projects.
here is a quick example.

It's the GerSham.
The other day I ran 5 wu's on GerSham 500pts,
in the new points system on GerSham I get 17th place and 516.70pts.
That's over half of 1st place points for just 5 wu's = 500pts
Now first place only gets 1000pts,

i did 5 wu's /500pts and get 516.70pts.
and first place guy did a lot of wu's and rocked 19,331,214 and gets 1000

I didn't like that but I still didn't have why, I just knew it has some problems.
So I dug deeper and tried this thought experiment.

What if someone ran 17th on all the programs, would they have more points than first place guy in indy points.

so the math is 516.70 x (30 projects) = 15,501
now let me check 1st place indy points ...tonight
crashtech TeAm AnandTech 15848.80 BG TOP POINTS indy style.

15848.80 Mr Top Points indy
15,501 Mr. I'm not a choosey cruncher
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

So just by running 17th across all projects, Mr. I'm not a choosey cruncher is a sooo close second
for overall BG indy points.
Now I knew I didn't like that, it was eating me.
It was a battle because that's called strategy and I need strategy to compete.
must be something else.

Oh yea, I'm a choosy cruncher and Mr. I'm not a choosey cruncher isn't.
Even Ian and Steve said they being "heldback", another brother in arms.

So it brings me to the next statement.
This points system is biased to people that are not choosey crunchers.
And it unwittingly puts "my desire to choose what programs I like to crunching" as a detriment and gives the non choosy cruncher and advantage. So by the mere fact that I am a choosy cruncher it's not a level playing field.
So it will definitely affect my ability to compete.

I like the idea trying to include more programs, more crunching, I like competition at every level.
But I also like a point system with no bias so what about this new point system.

So the question is, Is there a lot of people who will only run certain projects
and will that belief hold them back on BG if they come to compete.

I have some other examples but this was the simplest one to relate to.
I hope this helps

I think there might be some math analysis that could apply to point schemes,
but that is a little over my head.

Thanks
Steve

[Skillz]

so the math is 516.70 x (30 projects) = 15,501
now let me check 1st place indy points ...tonight
crashtech TeAm AnandTech 15848.80 BG TOP POINTS indy style.

15848.80 Mr Top Points indy
15,501 Mr. I'm not a choosey cruncher
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

So just by running 17th across all projects, Mr. I'm not a choosey cruncher is a sooo close second
for overall BG indy points.

First place in the individuals has a ceiling of 30,000 points if you are first in all the projects in the first quarter of the year and no sprints have happened.

17th place, as you put it, has a max ceiling of 15,501 points if you place 17th in all the projects in the first quarter of the year and no sprints have happened.

Old system:
First place in the individuals has a ceiling of 750 points if you place first in all the projects in the first quarter of the year and no sprints have happened.

17th place in the individuals has a ceiling of 0 points if you place 17th in all the projects in the first quarter of the year and no sprints have happened. That ties you with 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 18th so on an so forth places. Everyone of them with a 0.

So anyone who reached 17th place wouldn't be able to compete.

What happens when everyone individually runs 1 - 5 WUs on all the projects? The point of the competition is to run all the projects if you want to compete at the highest level in the overall standings. If the person in 2nd place currently sees they lost a position because someone just ran a project they had no points in previously and got "some points" on the board to earn the BG points and it pushed them into second, what's stopping them from going to the projects they have no points in and doing the same? Well what do you know. We have a competition fellas. Someone figured out a strategy and someone else sees the strategy and is mimicking it.

The point of the competition is you don't have to compete overall and can compete in individual project standings if that suits you.

Numbers are hard, Steve. Taking 17th place wont guarantee you a top place finish. It's a decent strategy, especially now while the member list is still low, but once BG has 100s of members all returning WUs you wont be able to rank 17th in any projects by just returning 1 - 5 WUs. It might theoretically give you 2nd place in the current standings, but go ahead and do that and let me know how it works out for you. Run 1 - 5 WUs in all projects, place 17th in them all, and let me know what overall place you end up.

The point system is for 300+ members. We only have around ~150 minus all the XS members who quit. So we aren't there yet; but I'm optimistic. I want 1000+ members. I want 100 teams, which is probably being overly optimistic on that and we'll probably only end up around ~50 or so and if that's where the teams settle then I will need to rethink the top 100 for teams since we wont have 100 teams.

You seem to be fixed on the size and scale of the points.
You seem to be fixed on the fact that it's easy right now to earn what appears to be a lot of BG points.
You seem to not know that if others are interested in competing overall, they can do the same. At some point, a winner will be chosen. That's literally how competitions work.

One person does one thing that beats their competitor. The competitor sees what they did and does the same thing. Eventually it'll get to the point where someone "off the streets" wont be able to just drop in and claim 1000s of points by running 1 - 5 WUs on all the projects because if and when we get 1000+ members all running projects 1 - 5 WUs wont get you in the top 300 in all the projects anymore.